Interview with Derek Guille on ABC Radio: 29th November, 2010
Part A |
Part B |
Podcast recording of interview: 17th November,
2010
|
|
Interview with Paul Burman from 'the view from
here' Issue 30, 2010
 |
 Speaking at the launch of 'the taste of apple' |
Last month, The View From Here reviewed James Laidler's debut verse novel the taste of apple, which was launched by IP (Interactive Press) in Australia in November. Prior to the launch, I caught up with James and asked him about his journey as a writer...
My journey has been a long, arduous and ongoing one when it comes to writing. My passion for it has always been at the root of my being, but finding the time and confidence to truly pursue a writing career has been difficult. It seems to come easier for some than others I think. As a young man my world was a broken mess. My family was extremely dysfunctional and I was the youngest of five. I never felt worthy enough to consider myself a writer and through much of my life I found myself unable to follow my passions for fear of failure. It‘s a paradox really. Today, my difficult upbringing informs my work as a writer and contributes to my voice and ability to draw authentic characters. But at the same time, my lack of self esteem meant I nearly didn‘t have a writing career to begin with. It makes me wonder how many other writers also experience this strange contradiction in life.
In the end, though, I wouldn‘t change how things have panned out in my writing life. I think the scars I carry from my difficult upbringing often inspire the words I end up carving onto the page. Without my past I am nothing as a writer. That‘s what many writers don‘t understand, especially nowadays, since the massive shift to creative writing courses in our society. The value of life experience is not fully appreciated. Yes, the skills and mechanics of writing are essential; writing is a craft that improves with effort. But, writers must experience life in order to capture it on the page and become great at what they do. The questions I would like to ask young writers out there are: what do you know about love and suffering? Have you fully embraced the relationships around you, or do you live in a cocoon? Can you untangle the jangled mess of competing interests—the humility, fear, lies, conceit, courage and pride—choking the fibres of your soul? What do you know of sacrifice and wonder?
You see, you can‘t get a PhD in these areas, but I believe writers are called to reflect long and hard on these matters. My biggest criticism for modern writers is that too often they have nothing to say because they are too busy playing games. It has become cool to be an absurdist; hip to be post-modern. Their writing is often banal, empty and lifeless. It strives to be 'clever‘ in order to attract applause. I suppose my philosophy on these matters, as you can see, influences me deeply. Life for me matters. It goddamn matters! And as a writer, I struggle with the post-modern, absurdist and nihilist position currently in vogue within literary circles. Whoops, I‘m ranting on here, aren't I?
That’s fine. Absolutely fine. Perhaps you could tell us what are the things that get in the way of writing? And how do you get over these hurdles?
Time is the problem. I think we are time poor in modern society. So it boils down to choices, imposing limits and setting realistic goals. As a writer, I work part-time as teacher in order to free up writing time. In real terms, with kids and a mortgage, this means minimising costs. I often shop for second-hand clothes, and my wife and I are careful about the food we buy. But we are rich in so many other ways. There is space and time, not just for creative pursuits, but for relationships. I hate money. It is the most overrated thing in the entire world and without doubt the route of most evil.
How did The Taste of Apple evolve as an idea?
The Taste of Apple started its life as a single poem actually. That first poem, Breathe, is now the first poem of the novel. Breathe came about because I had this vision of a young bloke, teetering at the edge of a high-rise rooftop: agitated, strung out and struggling to make sense of his world. The poem felt so rich with a sense of pathos and place that I immediately wanted to find out more about this guy. It all evolved from there, but it‘s a mystery to me how the whole process worked. There were no hard and fast rules I stuck to when writing. Sometimes I meticulously planned sections of the plot, other times I wrote stream-of-consciousness to see what would 'come out‘. Both methods have their merits I think. However, there was one thing I had from the start, and that was 'drive‘: a level of self belief and conviction propelled me forward and never really faded throughout the project. I‘m not talking about a self belief that was egotistic, narcissistic or vain. It was just a quiet self belief that I could get the job done and that the end product would be worthwhile.
I had a number of hurdles to overcome, of course. And one of the major obstacles was trying to distance myself from the narrative (I wanted to write fiction, not autobiography). It was a struggle, but my story suddenly grew wings one day when I turned the main protagonist from a white kid into a young man of Filipino extraction. Filipino culture is so rich, it blew my mind. I immersed myself in research: Catholic culture, Filipino customs and cuisine, Filipino history and live interviews with people of Filipino descent. The choice to change my main protagonist‘s background paid handsome dividends and I would advise any other budding authors to experiment with similar changes to their own cast of characters. All of a sudden I had this angst-ridden young bloke, trapped between cultures and struggling to find his identity. I had a Filipino Mum, overly religious and archaic, but steadfast in her love. And I had an overall scenario that really pushed me creatively to find an authentic voice (which was always going to be critical if the story was going to work).
I should also say that I wrote The Taste of Apple out of sequence. I wrote the final chapter half-way through to make sure I knew where I was going and in an attempt to keep the plot tight. This was quite helpful. Without this step, I fear my narrative may have spiralled out of control.
Another interesting point to note was that the music that accompanies the book was written with the help of Don Stewart, as the story actually evolved. I can‘t tell you how energising this was in completing the manuscript. Listening to your words come to life in song is a thrill that often made me redouble my effort to write and to write well.
My word! I also should say that I owe a huge gratitude to Don Stewart, my wife, Clare, and my mentor, Peter Chapman, who constantly read my work and gave me creative criticism. Dostoevsky said "love in reality is a harsh and dreadful thing", and I had this type of love in these three people in abundance. Perhaps the most important thing a writer can have is people in their life who can look them in the face and say, 'that sounds like shit!' Critical people. Harsh people who know the value of harsh love. People whose love values honesty above platitudes. In fact, nothing else is as important as this, because the truth is that no writer is perfect. If you‘re like me, you‘ll often write the most pathetic crap at times and then have the delusion of thinking it actually sounds good. Bah! I need people to give me some good hard loving. But also, getting back to an earlier point, I also need to have the confidence as a writer to cop it on the chin. You see, perhaps the problem a lot of writers have is that they think they are more important or more special than other people. The truth for me, however, is that in my better moments, I understand the fact that it is the message and not the messenger that is important when it comes to writing.
Here‘s a quote by Eric Gill I find very refreshing on this subject and it often helps to keep my ego in check: "An artist is not a special kind of person; every person is a special kind of artist."
What were some of the frustrations and successes associated with writing The Taste of Apple?
The hardest thing is waiting to hear back from publishers about your manuscript; especially when the work you have submitted is unusual, like mine. It does your head in. It really does! (Insert a picture of Holden Caulfield here!) You work your guts out, then simply have to wait it out. It‘s painful. Kind of like waiting for the dentist as he develops your x-rays. It‘s not a happy type of waiting. And then, when the letter of acceptance finally comes, yes, there is celebration, but I would argue that the feeling of relief is even stronger. In the end, I just count my blessings. My first novel was eventually picked up by a publisher. So I shouldn‘t complain. And my advice to other writers? Hmm! Don‘t give up. But even more important, find an honest professional, who knows about writing and beg them to give you some Dostoevsky loving. You gotta spank that manuscript into shape.
Tell us something about the process of seeing your book published and promoted. Has this changed the way you write or see yourself as a writer in any way?
I‘m with a small publisher, so it‘s all hands on deck. I‘ve done a lot to promote the book and it‘s not an area I enjoy. Nevertheless, it has to be done. I think I fantasise about being with a bigger publisher one day and getting ordered around by a team of publicists—that would be my idea of heaven!
Are there other verse novels in particular or writers generally who have inspired you and whose influence you can recognise in the way you write or think about writing?
Dorothy Porter was a pioneer of the verse novel form in Australia, although my work is quite different. Steven Herrick, Catherine Bateson, Sharon Creech and Judy Johnson are all current verse novelists who have influenced my work.
So what’s next?
The next work in the pipeline is a prose novel; working title: Pulling down the Stars.
And what would you like to achieve as a writer in, say, the next 10 years?
To have grown a readership base to an extent that I can support myself as a full-time writer.
Do you have any other tips, James – perhaps things you remind yourself about – which you can pass onto other writers?
Yes, if you‘ve got no humility and you can‘t laugh at yourself, then you‘ll never be a writer. You‘ll just be a wanker!
Which is an appropriately sharp and conclusive point, after all that talk of hard loving, for our interview to end. Thanks, James, and good luck with promoting the book and CD.
My journey has been a long, arduous and ongoing one when it comes to writing. My passion for it has always been at the root of my being, but finding the time and confidence to truly pursue a writing career has been difficult. It seems to come easier for some than others I think. As a young man my world was a broken mess. My family was extremely dysfunctional and I was the youngest of five. I never felt worthy enough to consider myself a writer and through much of my life I found myself unable to follow my passions for fear of failure. It‘s a paradox really. Today, my difficult upbringing informs my work as a writer and contributes to my voice and ability to draw authentic characters. But at the same time, my lack of self esteem meant I nearly didn‘t have a writing career to begin with. It makes me wonder how many other writers also experience this strange contradiction in life.
In the end, though, I wouldn‘t change how things have panned out in my writing life. I think the scars I carry from my difficult upbringing often inspire the words I end up carving onto the page. Without my past I am nothing as a writer. That‘s what many writers don‘t understand, especially nowadays, since the massive shift to creative writing courses in our society. The value of life experience is not fully appreciated. Yes, the skills and mechanics of writing are essential; writing is a craft that improves with effort. But, writers must experience life in order to capture it on the page and become great at what they do. The questions I would like to ask young writers out there are: what do you know about love and suffering? Have you fully embraced the relationships around you, or do you live in a cocoon? Can you untangle the jangled mess of competing interests—the humility, fear, lies, conceit, courage and pride—choking the fibres of your soul? What do you know of sacrifice and wonder?
You see, you can‘t get a PhD in these areas, but I believe writers are called to reflect long and hard on these matters. My biggest criticism for modern writers is that too often they have nothing to say because they are too busy playing games. It has become cool to be an absurdist; hip to be post-modern. Their writing is often banal, empty and lifeless. It strives to be 'clever‘ in order to attract applause. I suppose my philosophy on these matters, as you can see, influences me deeply. Life for me matters. It goddamn matters! And as a writer, I struggle with the post-modern, absurdist and nihilist position currently in vogue within literary circles. Whoops, I‘m ranting on here, aren't I?
That’s fine. Absolutely fine. Perhaps you could tell us what are the things that get in the way of writing? And how do you get over these hurdles?
Time is the problem. I think we are time poor in modern society. So it boils down to choices, imposing limits and setting realistic goals. As a writer, I work part-time as teacher in order to free up writing time. In real terms, with kids and a mortgage, this means minimising costs. I often shop for second-hand clothes, and my wife and I are careful about the food we buy. But we are rich in so many other ways. There is space and time, not just for creative pursuits, but for relationships. I hate money. It is the most overrated thing in the entire world and without doubt the route of most evil.
How did The Taste of Apple evolve as an idea?
The Taste of Apple started its life as a single poem actually. That first poem, Breathe, is now the first poem of the novel. Breathe came about because I had this vision of a young bloke, teetering at the edge of a high-rise rooftop: agitated, strung out and struggling to make sense of his world. The poem felt so rich with a sense of pathos and place that I immediately wanted to find out more about this guy. It all evolved from there, but it‘s a mystery to me how the whole process worked. There were no hard and fast rules I stuck to when writing. Sometimes I meticulously planned sections of the plot, other times I wrote stream-of-consciousness to see what would 'come out‘. Both methods have their merits I think. However, there was one thing I had from the start, and that was 'drive‘: a level of self belief and conviction propelled me forward and never really faded throughout the project. I‘m not talking about a self belief that was egotistic, narcissistic or vain. It was just a quiet self belief that I could get the job done and that the end product would be worthwhile.
I had a number of hurdles to overcome, of course. And one of the major obstacles was trying to distance myself from the narrative (I wanted to write fiction, not autobiography). It was a struggle, but my story suddenly grew wings one day when I turned the main protagonist from a white kid into a young man of Filipino extraction. Filipino culture is so rich, it blew my mind. I immersed myself in research: Catholic culture, Filipino customs and cuisine, Filipino history and live interviews with people of Filipino descent. The choice to change my main protagonist‘s background paid handsome dividends and I would advise any other budding authors to experiment with similar changes to their own cast of characters. All of a sudden I had this angst-ridden young bloke, trapped between cultures and struggling to find his identity. I had a Filipino Mum, overly religious and archaic, but steadfast in her love. And I had an overall scenario that really pushed me creatively to find an authentic voice (which was always going to be critical if the story was going to work).
I should also say that I wrote The Taste of Apple out of sequence. I wrote the final chapter half-way through to make sure I knew where I was going and in an attempt to keep the plot tight. This was quite helpful. Without this step, I fear my narrative may have spiralled out of control.
Another interesting point to note was that the music that accompanies the book was written with the help of Don Stewart, as the story actually evolved. I can‘t tell you how energising this was in completing the manuscript. Listening to your words come to life in song is a thrill that often made me redouble my effort to write and to write well.
My word! I also should say that I owe a huge gratitude to Don Stewart, my wife, Clare, and my mentor, Peter Chapman, who constantly read my work and gave me creative criticism. Dostoevsky said "love in reality is a harsh and dreadful thing", and I had this type of love in these three people in abundance. Perhaps the most important thing a writer can have is people in their life who can look them in the face and say, 'that sounds like shit!' Critical people. Harsh people who know the value of harsh love. People whose love values honesty above platitudes. In fact, nothing else is as important as this, because the truth is that no writer is perfect. If you‘re like me, you‘ll often write the most pathetic crap at times and then have the delusion of thinking it actually sounds good. Bah! I need people to give me some good hard loving. But also, getting back to an earlier point, I also need to have the confidence as a writer to cop it on the chin. You see, perhaps the problem a lot of writers have is that they think they are more important or more special than other people. The truth for me, however, is that in my better moments, I understand the fact that it is the message and not the messenger that is important when it comes to writing.
Here‘s a quote by Eric Gill I find very refreshing on this subject and it often helps to keep my ego in check: "An artist is not a special kind of person; every person is a special kind of artist."
What were some of the frustrations and successes associated with writing The Taste of Apple?
The hardest thing is waiting to hear back from publishers about your manuscript; especially when the work you have submitted is unusual, like mine. It does your head in. It really does! (Insert a picture of Holden Caulfield here!) You work your guts out, then simply have to wait it out. It‘s painful. Kind of like waiting for the dentist as he develops your x-rays. It‘s not a happy type of waiting. And then, when the letter of acceptance finally comes, yes, there is celebration, but I would argue that the feeling of relief is even stronger. In the end, I just count my blessings. My first novel was eventually picked up by a publisher. So I shouldn‘t complain. And my advice to other writers? Hmm! Don‘t give up. But even more important, find an honest professional, who knows about writing and beg them to give you some Dostoevsky loving. You gotta spank that manuscript into shape.
Tell us something about the process of seeing your book published and promoted. Has this changed the way you write or see yourself as a writer in any way?
I‘m with a small publisher, so it‘s all hands on deck. I‘ve done a lot to promote the book and it‘s not an area I enjoy. Nevertheless, it has to be done. I think I fantasise about being with a bigger publisher one day and getting ordered around by a team of publicists—that would be my idea of heaven!
Are there other verse novels in particular or writers generally who have inspired you and whose influence you can recognise in the way you write or think about writing?
Dorothy Porter was a pioneer of the verse novel form in Australia, although my work is quite different. Steven Herrick, Catherine Bateson, Sharon Creech and Judy Johnson are all current verse novelists who have influenced my work.
So what’s next?
The next work in the pipeline is a prose novel; working title: Pulling down the Stars.
And what would you like to achieve as a writer in, say, the next 10 years?
To have grown a readership base to an extent that I can support myself as a full-time writer.
Do you have any other tips, James – perhaps things you remind yourself about – which you can pass onto other writers?
Yes, if you‘ve got no humility and you can‘t laugh at yourself, then you‘ll never be a writer. You‘ll just be a wanker!
Which is an appropriately sharp and conclusive point, after all that talk of hard loving, for our interview to end. Thanks, James, and good luck with promoting the book and CD.
Podcast recording of interview: 5th April, 2010
Part A |
Part B |
Interview appearing in IPNews No 47, 2010
Focus
Interview 1: James Laidler & Don Stewart
[James Laidler and Don Stewart's The Taste of Apple was the winner of IP Picks 2010 Best First Book. Daniel O'Regan interviews them.
DO: The obvious question first: Taste of Apple features as one of its central themes the plight of the Timor Leste and its people. Why is this an issue that you feel strongly about?
JL: The plight of Timor Leste has always been close to my heart. Throughout the 1990s I was actively involved in the East Timorese liberation movement. What drew me to this issue, in particular, was the hidden historical debt Australia owed to the East Timorese people for their steadfast support of our diggers during the Second World War. It is a history that has been sadly neglected in our country. In my novel, I wished to explore this issue and encourage other Australian to understand its significance.
DO: The Taste of Apple is a verse novel. Ultimately, which aspect of it do you consider stronger: the poetry or the narrative? Do you think either could or should stand on its own?
JL: I think that both the poetry and the narrative are equally important; one reinforcing the other. Clearly, it in not a 'book of poetry' and it was never intended to be so. I consider it more as work of poetic prose. Think of it as a new form of literary expression equivalent to 'impressionism' in painting circles if you must, although this analogy is rather clumsy. Nevertheless, like an impressionist painting, the narrative bombards the senses with imagery, rhythms, and the graceful presence of 'white space'. It is up to the reader to fill in the gaps that a prose novel would normal fill. I believe this bestows a level of dignity upon the reader who is asked to actively engage with the narrative. You cannot read The taste of apple as a passive observer.
DO: Unlike most coming-of-age stories there is no real romantic element in Taste of Apple. Was this a deliberate avoidance?
JL: Yes, it was intentional. Coming-of-age romance can be very cliché. The reality is that for most young teenagers is that they dream of romance, but experience it very rarely. Most young male teenagers feel awkward in themselves and do not get into an intimate relationship with someone until they leave school. The main protagonist, Pedro, feels sexual urges and the desire for intimacy like any other teenager, but his experience of relationships with women is one of alienation. Pedro compensates for this his lack of intimacy by indulging in pornography and masturbation. I believe this is a accurate insight into the life of many teenage boys. The narrative, instead of romance, focuses on the importance of friendship. In a society obsessed with sex and self image, I find this a welcome relief.
DO: Music and books are media that are not usually mixed. Why do you think this is?
DS: I'm not really sure but I suspect it's got something to do with the perception people have held until fairly recently that books are something to be read - preferably via paper. The advent of new technologies and new ways of delivering books via electronic media has allowed us all to think a little more laterally about books. Music, has been an integral part of film from the beginning, so to me it makes perfect sense that music should be part of the reading experience.
DO: Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Or, in this case, the poetry or the music? Was one written in response to the themes brought about in the other?
DS: The concept of music being part of the novel came from James and so most of the tracks were given to me as pretty completed poems which I then composed the music for. A couple of tracks – “Richmond Town” being one, I’d written the music a couple of years earlier. Johnny’s song was written lyrically and musically by James and I but came from the context of the story.
DO: This book is a real multi-media affair: How did you go about striking a balance between music, spoken word and background effects (such as newspaper clips) in a way that it'd appeal to the general community?
JL & DS: Even though the book is presented in a multimedia format, it is still fundamentally a verse novel. The music and audio effects used were chosen because we felt they would enhance the reader’s experience of the novel. We only chose 13 tracks because that represents an album length of music, anymore then this would have required much more time (the music took 15 months to produce). We chose to present poems from various parts of the novel so that the reader has an experience of the music at various places throughout the novel. The feedback we’ve had so far is that we’ve got the balance about the right.
Interview 1: James Laidler & Don Stewart
[James Laidler and Don Stewart's The Taste of Apple was the winner of IP Picks 2010 Best First Book. Daniel O'Regan interviews them.
DO: The obvious question first: Taste of Apple features as one of its central themes the plight of the Timor Leste and its people. Why is this an issue that you feel strongly about?
JL: The plight of Timor Leste has always been close to my heart. Throughout the 1990s I was actively involved in the East Timorese liberation movement. What drew me to this issue, in particular, was the hidden historical debt Australia owed to the East Timorese people for their steadfast support of our diggers during the Second World War. It is a history that has been sadly neglected in our country. In my novel, I wished to explore this issue and encourage other Australian to understand its significance.
DO: The Taste of Apple is a verse novel. Ultimately, which aspect of it do you consider stronger: the poetry or the narrative? Do you think either could or should stand on its own?
JL: I think that both the poetry and the narrative are equally important; one reinforcing the other. Clearly, it in not a 'book of poetry' and it was never intended to be so. I consider it more as work of poetic prose. Think of it as a new form of literary expression equivalent to 'impressionism' in painting circles if you must, although this analogy is rather clumsy. Nevertheless, like an impressionist painting, the narrative bombards the senses with imagery, rhythms, and the graceful presence of 'white space'. It is up to the reader to fill in the gaps that a prose novel would normal fill. I believe this bestows a level of dignity upon the reader who is asked to actively engage with the narrative. You cannot read The taste of apple as a passive observer.
DO: Unlike most coming-of-age stories there is no real romantic element in Taste of Apple. Was this a deliberate avoidance?
JL: Yes, it was intentional. Coming-of-age romance can be very cliché. The reality is that for most young teenagers is that they dream of romance, but experience it very rarely. Most young male teenagers feel awkward in themselves and do not get into an intimate relationship with someone until they leave school. The main protagonist, Pedro, feels sexual urges and the desire for intimacy like any other teenager, but his experience of relationships with women is one of alienation. Pedro compensates for this his lack of intimacy by indulging in pornography and masturbation. I believe this is a accurate insight into the life of many teenage boys. The narrative, instead of romance, focuses on the importance of friendship. In a society obsessed with sex and self image, I find this a welcome relief.
DO: Music and books are media that are not usually mixed. Why do you think this is?
DS: I'm not really sure but I suspect it's got something to do with the perception people have held until fairly recently that books are something to be read - preferably via paper. The advent of new technologies and new ways of delivering books via electronic media has allowed us all to think a little more laterally about books. Music, has been an integral part of film from the beginning, so to me it makes perfect sense that music should be part of the reading experience.
DO: Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Or, in this case, the poetry or the music? Was one written in response to the themes brought about in the other?
DS: The concept of music being part of the novel came from James and so most of the tracks were given to me as pretty completed poems which I then composed the music for. A couple of tracks – “Richmond Town” being one, I’d written the music a couple of years earlier. Johnny’s song was written lyrically and musically by James and I but came from the context of the story.
DO: This book is a real multi-media affair: How did you go about striking a balance between music, spoken word and background effects (such as newspaper clips) in a way that it'd appeal to the general community?
JL & DS: Even though the book is presented in a multimedia format, it is still fundamentally a verse novel. The music and audio effects used were chosen because we felt they would enhance the reader’s experience of the novel. We only chose 13 tracks because that represents an album length of music, anymore then this would have required much more time (the music took 15 months to produce). We chose to present poems from various parts of the novel so that the reader has an experience of the music at various places throughout the novel. The feedback we’ve had so far is that we’ve got the balance about the right.
